Hi Bob:

Thanks for chiming in. I appreciate the J24 example, yet I am trying to calculate why the visual differece in the breadth of crew on Moore 24's; woman, lite weights, mid weights, heavy weights . . . against another ulttralight. And that answer is becuase the M24s mid weight filter is 205#s. So I'm trying to compare two ultralights. Not an ultralight and a displacement boat. So I think your J24 example while in the same method is less than ideally suited for comparing diviations between two ultralights. Thank you for bringing up this metric again. Perhaps you can chose some ultralight to ultrlight comparisons and offer the results. Specific to the class weight limit, I should weigh in around 230 pounds of the e27 class scale given historical precedence. I can say at that weight with other crew choices limited right around the fleet 179 pound mid point which is your American Average, makes it almost impossible for me to field a Real Fleet Series team. With five I'm high with four I'm way under.

That means I can't get a crew to meet the weight requirement on the average all the time for the Real Fleet Series. Certainly not for an entire season, which is my main issue, where the same people work togther over and over again to gain a Real Fleet boat handling advantage. That is virtually impossible for me under the current system.

So I don't, essentially cannot field a team in the Real Fleet Series and therefore focus on the Fun Series. Where I am advocating for some changes. Changes that will enable me to sail without all the adminsitrative hassle I'm going through attempting to gather five people together at the 880# limit. And to do that over and over again for each and every race all season long; to gain the boat handling advantage.

More important, I think, is that a weight change up can open the flood gates to a whole category or real and existing crew choices the fleet has by and large turned away in the 190 - 230 + category. This is an important fleet issue about all the people who want to sail e27 and cannot given the way the 176# filter limits their partici[pation. And this is a negative for any fleet either not recognizing or addressing this opportunity to expand the ranks of crew and owners in this category of individuals And that is because this is where the highest growth of new participants can come from. And that is because it can grow from a near zero base not having been recruited from for at least a decade.

Important to note is that in my seven owner sample, it wasn't just the case of turing one or two 200+#ers away. It was in a couple of cases turning away 4 and 5 people who were real and existing crew choices in this higher weight category that could not get on the boat because of the current weight limit's low threashold.

Probability sugests this mean across each owners racing phone book, there is probably greater than 40 people who want a ride and can't get one. And that becuase they're weight skews to the higher side of 176 and into a range of weight that the fleet does in fact turn away.

Regardless of my issues getting down to an impossible weight, this issue of restricting growth from this 190 - 230ish pound category has got to change. That's becuase it offer the greatest chance of fleet growth filling in a gap where their is currently a zero base to grow from.

Mike

::
:: Let's see .....
::
:: (Goofy math One)

:: The average American male weighs 185 pounds and the
:: average American female weighs 163 (we'll say 165 just
:: for giggles). Since there's about a 50/50 mix of the
:: two, it follows that the average American weighs 175
:: pounds.
::
:: I've observed that the Express is the most fun to sail
:: with 4 to 5 people. Any more and they're just meat. Any
:: less and there's a competitive disadvantage. So, for
:: this math problem, we'll pick five. Five average
:: Americans would weigh 875 pounds. Move away from that
:: number and you'll bias in favor of something other than
:: the average (very un-American!).
::
:: (Goofy math Two)

:: One of the most successful one design keel boats of all
:: time is the J24 (the boat everyone loves to hate). The
:: J24 dry weight is 1270 Kgs. The J24 class rules allow a
:: maximum crew weight of 400 Kgs. This yields a ratio of
:: about 31.5%. Taking the Express 27s dry weight of 2450
:: pounds, the J24 class equivalent crew weight would be
:: ..... tada ..... 771.5 pounds! Not suggesting we lower
:: our class weight, but math applied to a successful class
:: would certainly seem to support it.
::
:: (Summary Discussion)

:: I own hull #93 and sail one design at the Detroit NOODs.
:: I weigh about 195 lbs. I sail with two of my buddies who
:: weigh about 280 pounds each and a female doctor bud who
:: tips the scales at (maybe) 115. I think we're pretty
:: competitive, but maybe that's just my ego talking.
::
:: You can 'prove' just about anything you'd like with
:: numbers ... that's why politicians use polls and
:: percentages so willingly.
::
:: The boats are fun to sail as the rules exist now. Used
:: boats are not sitting on the market, so there's no
:: indication that something needs fixing. No matter where
:: the number is fixed, someone will be able to complain
:: that it biases against them. Part of any boats challenge
:: lies in overcoming any weakness in your program.
::
:: Thanks for playing!
::
:: Bob Harvey

:: (do I win any kind of a prize?)