Hi Will, I skipped the nationals this year partially because of the weight limit. The part of the story you are missing is when you have a 250 # owner, you have to sail with very little muscle doing the crew work. If you have a 180# grinder you can only have 150# crew for the remaining three of the team. That is pretty whimpy. Every year I have starved myself for 3 months to get down to weight and usually just barely made it by weighing in before eating that day.

I have a woman on my crew so you cannot call me prejudiced and she weighs 160#. As far as I am concerned, the weight limit is just plain mean to me. I have sailed with 4 on occasion and when the wind blows, I get beat up. I am not ready to come out with a short crew just because I am not as gravatationally or vertically challenged as some other people.

I would never vote for the limit and with it in place I am hit or miss for national level events. it is just too hard to get down below 230 for me.

Larry

::
:: Hi Will:
::
:: I'm obviously and advocate of increasing the weight
:: limit to between 1030 and 1050# . . . which is no where
:: near 1200# . . . and in my opinon no where near boat
:: breaking.
::
:: Cheers
::
:: MB
::
::
:: :: Mike,
::
:: :: You are my friend so with all due respect I think it is
:: :: important to debate this from both sides.
:: ::
:: :: First of all the class has been very stable for 10+
:: :: years and if it ain't broke don't fix it!
:: ::
:: :: I am 165# and have a 250# crew man and 2 girls and 1
:: :: young guy to round things out. I first sailed in these
:: :: boats as a junior with you and Mike H. and have never
:: :: forgotten the good times. Thanks!
:: ::
:: :: As the class measurer I am concerned about the boats and
:: :: they are getting older along with the rest of us. Lets
:: :: not make things harder on us all!
:: ::
:: :: Also I do not want to sail with 6 crew or sail with the
:: :: # 1 into 20kts of breeze. This is what upping the weight
:: :: limit would mean to many of us- as well as the need to
:: :: buy a whole new sail inventory and what not. I am a
:: :: sailmaker but an Express owner first!
:: ::
:: :: Fly weight drivers or heavy drivers- Jeff weighs about
:: :: 250 and won the nationals 2 years ago as the driver. I
:: :: am sure that a veteran crew of 4 big guys could find a
:: :: way to duke it out with the rest of us.
:: ::
:: :: I like your proposals for a fun serries or long distance
:: :: serries. I hope the Desperado will sail over to the TYC
:: :: for a beer and dinner on saturday.
::
:: :: Cheers,
::
:: :: Will
:: ::
:: :: :: Hi Will:
:: :: ::
:: :: :: I understand your point that five people are easy to
:: :: :: administer . . . and four our even easier if that's
:: :: :: what's needed to make the 880# limit.
:: :: ::
:: :: :: And as your aware, I've never been prejudice to
:: :: :: recruits; whether juniors, woman, or other lighter
:: :: :: people, except when they are little people forming a
:: :: :: voting block to impose a weight restriction which favors
:: :: :: them and all of their little cohorts.
:: :: ::
:: :: :: Please note, four crew at 880# have a distinct
:: :: :: disadvantage against five crew at 880#. Those
:: :: :: disadvantages are associated with one of the two heavier
:: :: :: people being off the rail through a tack to pull in the
:: :: :: headsail. And, for the first few seconds afterwards,
:: :: :: only one person really is hiking out on the rail.
:: :: ::
:: :: :: So five people at 880# have an advantage over four
:: :: :: people at 880# through the tacks. More of them are on
:: :: :: the rail following the tack . . . and less of them,
:: :: :: wieght wise, are off the rail.
:: :: ::
:: :: :: Additionally, I weigh between 230 and 250, and my butt's
:: :: :: in the back of the boat, all the time, regardless of
:: :: :: when maneuvering. People around my weight have a
:: :: :: material disadvantage, all the time, with the 880# limit
:: :: :: because we present a quarter of that limit . . . in the
:: :: :: back of the boat.
:: :: ::
:: :: :: Now, you might be lucky enough to be an iternally skinny
:: :: :: guy. But for most of us post 40 types, that's not the
:: :: :: way nature works; regardless of whether we like beer and
:: :: :: wine; or not.
:: :: ::
:: :: :: I'm not saying its impossible to be competitive with
:: :: :: four . . . but to pick up your point . . . simply that
:: :: :: it is not equal.
:: :: ::
:: :: :: Per your point that boats blow up with 1050#s of crew.
:: :: :: Sorry, that's simply fallacy. I've raced with
:: :: :: extraordinarily heavy crew; from time to time. And the
:: :: :: only structural fatigues were associated with things
:: :: :: that wern't engineered quite right to begin with
:: :: :: regardless of how much weight was on the boat. Just look
:: :: :: at the Light'n Up sailing with 12 to 15 all the time.
:: :: :: The boats in great shape.
:: ::
:: :: :: Again, the ideal weight for the boat is around 1050#.
:: :: :: And, its easy to find five normal Americans too fit that
:: :: :: framework.
:: :: ::
:: :: :: Further, when I weighed 165 pounds at 6' 1", I sailed
:: :: :: the boat with six, at 1030 to 1050#. So, here's an
:: :: :: opportunity to take the junior or girl friend. I know, I
:: :: :: know, its an extra sandwich . . . and someone's job
:: :: :: becomes delgated to the vang and cunningham. But for the
:: :: :: owners, the boats are much more fun so sail as much more
:: :: :: powerful; especially upwind.
:: :: ::
:: :: :: :: Mike,
:: :: ::
:: :: :: :: I know for a bigger guy finding 5 that fit in the weight
:: :: :: :: limit can be tough- but a weight limit is critical for
:: :: :: :: fair racing on our light boats. Elimination of the
:: :: :: :: weight limit would lead to the elimination of small
:: :: :: :: people (Ladies!) from sailing the boats, increased wear
:: :: :: :: and tear from sailing with much more weight, the need to
:: :: :: :: buy new sail inventories to take advantage of more
:: :: :: :: righting moment, and less comfortable (and expensive
:: :: :: :: sailing!) because most boats would have to sail with 6
:: :: :: :: to be competitive. Trying to find that one person big or
:: :: :: :: small to hit the weight right can be tricky- but do you
:: :: :: :: want it to be all about finding the 6 biggest all the
:: :: :: :: time? The Moore 24 class recently imposed a weight limit
:: :: :: :: for just this reason!
:: :: ::
:: :: :: :: In the old days with the 1000# crew weight many more
:: :: :: :: Expresses lost rigs, broke gear, and even seperated
:: :: :: :: bulkheads trying to sail around in 18-20kts with their
:: :: :: :: number 1 up. This does NOT sound like fun to me! The
:: :: :: :: 880# weight limit is more comfortable to sail the boat
:: :: :: :: with, cheaper in MANY ways, and is more inclusive of
:: :: :: :: woman and juniors that are all important to fun sailing
:: :: :: :: and the future of our class!
:: :: ::
:: :: :: :: As a solution it is possible to sail competitively with
:: :: :: :: 4 big guys- Jeff Thorpe got third in his first Nationals
:: :: :: :: in 98 like this. Also invite juniors from your yacht
:: :: :: :: club to join your team. Young kids are eager, hard
:: :: :: :: working, and soak up waves on the bow better than us
:: :: :: :: older people.
:: :: ::
:: :: :: :: Cheers Mike- I hope to see you join the fleet for some
:: :: :: :: one design racing soon!
:: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: Please see Tiburon Yacht Club Event Bulletin Board to
:: :: :: :: :: chime in on re-exaimining the virtues (OR NOT) of the
:: :: :: :: :: 880# weight limit.
:: :: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: Mike Bruzzone