WTF!!!!!!

:: Hi Tom:
::
:: Yes I appreciate you backing down on suggesting that we
:: censor our open discussions on this board concerning all
:: issues of the fleet metric.
::
:: Again, I'm only concerned personally about the weight
:: limit filter which I believe is too fine because it
:: filters out vast numbers of real and existing crew
:: choices. More so, this finding has been substantiated
:: through one on one conference with multiple owners over
:: the prior two months.
::
:: Based on these conversations I believe the weight limit
:: will change by next season. I am personally advocvating
:: for its test adoption in the Fun Series this year.
::
:: I also believe if a vote were called now, that crew
:: weight result would be substanitally different one from
:: the vote earllier in the year, now that a certain number
:: of the factors and issues are better understood by the
:: majority who have seen their real crew choices limited
:: by a rule that filters for less than 176 pound crew
:: members.

:: More so, I have only been an advocate of this opening of
:: the weight limit to a more granular filter in the Fun
:: Series. Which I think is a Fun idea supporting ease of
:: administration, ease of crew placement, encouraging more
:: outside particiaption in the fleet. A good first to
:: opening up for more crew participation and regardless if
:: such a weight increrase is ever adopted in the real
:: fleet series. Although I will inform everyone reading
:: here that most of the concern for opening the filter
:: exists among those racing in the real fleet series.
::
:: Again, I'm the only one who has cited a scientific way
:: to measure and distinguish why this visual annomaly
:: apparent between the diverse weight make-up of E27 and
:: M24 crews. And that annomally exists because the M24
:: weight limit opens the gates to the vast numbers of crew
:: in excess of 200#s.
::
:: If you have a similar scientifc means to justify not
:: opening the gates to more particiaption in the fleet, or
:: somehow a metric that justifies the currentl 880# weight
:: limit; do so. Then we can do the statistical analysis.
::
:: Regardess, the constituent sounding has made the answer
:: obvious. The current filter progressively skews the
:: weeding out of real and existing crew choices the
:: heavier they weigh. And certainly hits its stride in
:: acting as a limiter for choices over 210#.
::
:: In summary pursuant to my adovacy and continued
:: diplomacy.
::
:: 1) I noticed the anomally in the M24 fleet as a
:: repeating pattern of more diverse crews.
::
:: 2) I figured out why matematically. No one else has done
:: this.
::
:: 3) I then took this information and begun to champion it
:: personally owner to owner, and found that the real issue
:: is that the current weight filter is not sufficiently
:: grainular to enable owners to choose from a much vaster
:: pool of real and existing crew choices; that in fact are
:: being turned away. Undoubtedly these crew choices will
:: go somewhere else if they can't find a ride on the boat
:: they'd rather be sailign on.
::
:: 4) Specific to counterpoint. The opposition has offered
:: no result based on any empircal means to justify their
:: stance to keep the current weight limit. I will here in.
:: And this is not to detract from or keep people in the
:: dark as to these empirical findings as they surface and
:: become better understood.
::
:: I did get one political reason for keeping the current
:: weight limit by one boat who was tired of PHRF poltiics
:: in Monterey. And I thought that was a good reason.
:: However, none of the other opposition to raising the
:: limit to more real and existing crew choices has been
:: offered. So counter to diplomacy there has been a level
:: of detraction from those opposing for some reason.
::
:: Like in any fleet the detractors to change are its top
:: scorers where the boat envirnment is set and things are
:: working fine. I was one when the fleet had no weight
:: limit and all of a sudden had to modify my crew of 6
:: total at 1065. At the time that meant booting a crew
:: member.
::
:: To avoid this breakdown this go round, the weight limit
:: should obviosuly be increased to 1100 poinds. Meaning
:: the top scorers simple add one 200 pounder to the crew.
:: Subsequently don't have to go through the radical crew
:: rework forced onto many when the weight went to 1000#s
:: way back when.
::
:: Now, everyone knows I'm simply pressing for 980#s as
:: this total weight opens the filter to the 200#ers I'm
:: currently having to turn away. As are others. And there
:: are a lot of them that are being turned away.
::
:: Why let them get away into other fleets? What's the cost
:: of one more sandwich? And even if that sixth persons job
:: is the boom vang and the cunningham, that spot opens a
:: spot for the novice which is almost an impossibility in
:: any racing fleet; yet here this opportunity exists.
::
:: Finally this has nothing to do with detracting from
:: fleet racing or a fleet rule system. Simply that opening
:: up the weight limit and in the Fun Series certainly
:: offers one step, opens the doorway, to recruting more
:: real and existing crew choices into the fleet regardless
:: of what happens in the real fleet series. Makes racing
:: in what is supposed to be the Fun Series easier to
:: administer. Consider this Fun Series recruitment
:: transition a recruting and screening mechanism for the
:: real fleet racers. And if this results in a B fleet that
:: feeds into an A fleet more the good.
::
:: Unlike you Tom, I don't have the time to administer or
:: even desire to manage a bouy racing program on my own
:: boat. Subsequently, the alternative schedule works for
:: me. I think it should be kept different from the real
:: fleet series, despite the bouy race slipped into its
:: schedule this year, by the real fleet racers who in my
:: opinion have an excellent round the bouys schedule this
:: year which liek the Fun Series; should distinguish the
:: fleet as as excellent chioce.
::
:: Mike
::
:: :: Well Mike I was trying to be diplomatic, but to put it
:: :: bluntly, you are beating a dead horse. Your arguments
:: :: are subjective arguments about balance/comparisons of
:: :: weights across different fleets, a case can be made and
:: :: argued for in opposition to yours using the same logic,
:: :: its just your point of view. The weight issue was voted
:: :: on as discussed here, and won with a wide margin.
:: :: Actually, I missed the vote at the 07’ Nationals Annual
:: :: Meeting, so you can figure that I would be one more to
:: :: vote to keep the weight where it stands for the 08’
:: :: meeting. With regard to the Distance Series (mellow
:: :: series) I personally own the boat to sail in a One
:: :: Design fleet, and I am guessing so do most of the rest
:: :: of the group. I am not sure of the origins of the
:: :: Distance High Point series, but I doubt that the
:: :: originators wanted the boats to sail out of One Design
:: :: for the trophy. That said, if the racing is One Design
:: :: and a boat is sailing in an illegal form, that gives
:: :: anyone else the right to pull the flag, that sure
:: :: doesn’t sound like much fun……
:: ::
:: :: Lets all sail strict One Design, and use these forums
:: :: for constructive discussion to better the fleet and the
:: :: sailors.
:: ::
:: ::
:: :: :: Hi Tom:
:: :: ::
:: :: :: One more thought. I disagree with limiting an open
:: :: :: board. People need to know what they're opting into when
:: :: :: they consider crewing on an Express or joining our fleet
:: :: :: as an owner.
:: :: ::
:: :: :: Further, we've got as good problem. First, there's a
:: :: :: surplus of real existing crew that raising the weight
:: :: :: limit opens the door to; including prospects that might
:: :: :: soemday own a boat. Second, market price remains at a
:: :: :: premium over introductory price. These two indicators
:: :: :: show demand and I don't think that information is worthy
:: :: :: of limiting within the reverberating reprecusions of a
:: :: :: closed environment limiting the openings.
:: :: ::
:: :: :: On the other nonsense rules. Opening up these limits
:: :: :: means there will be some top boats intersted in pursuing
:: :: :: them. There always are and this core catalyst can act as
:: :: :: a growth accelerator for everything else.
:: ::
:: :: :: MIke
:: :: ::
:: :: ::
:: :: :: :: Hi Tom:
:: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: Rants has nothing to do with it if you are really doing
:: :: :: :: your constituent homework. And I agree with you this is
:: :: :: :: all about enticing ownership in the e27; and the market
:: :: :: :: price seems to prove that over and over again.
:: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: Will suggested I not opt in to this delemma of the
:: :: :: :: weight malfunction. In fact I never did having owned the
:: :: :: :: boat since July 1984 when there were no limits and none
:: :: :: :: of this regulatory nonsense.
:: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: And while I belive the fleet has done well, grown, and
:: :: :: :: made the best out of the last ten years of exeuctive
:: :: :: :: leadership, its time for a change. The fleet lost at
:: :: :: :: least two boats to these nonsense rules. Those are Soren
:: :: :: :: & Lega on Attitude Adjustment and Scott Easom who wanted
:: :: :: :: to buy an Express and then bought a Moore 24 instead.
:: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: As everyone is aware I supported Lega & Soren, and Scott
:: :: :: :: indirectly, at the National meeting because I believe
:: :: :: :: creativity needs to find its place in the sense of
:: :: :: :: things. I had no objections. In turn the option remains
:: :: :: :: open to pursue. Recall through the fleets most rapid
:: :: :: :: growth stage in terms of quantiies of production there
:: :: :: :: were none of these nonsense regulations. Like hiking
:: :: :: :: lines noe when before there were no life lines at all?
:: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: Specific to the weight limit. Every engineer, scientist
:: :: :: :: or mathematician knows I offered the only rational
:: :: :: :: metric why the fleet needs to seriously consider moving
:: :: :: :: the weight limit to 980 pounds based on one example from
:: :: :: :: a similar boat; the Moore 24. This metric includes
:: :: :: :: empiracal visual proof of a mix of the crews, where
:: :: :: :: somehow this weight propotion in the M24 fleet better
:: :: :: :: does a better job of mixing up the bunch.
:: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: But there's still an issue.
:: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: Regardless of the math and empirical observations,
:: :: :: :: speaking about participation and encouraging ownership:
:: :: :: :: then move the weight limit to a range supporting six
:: :: :: :: crew members. For every one who has done their homework
:: :: :: :: there is a surplus of people waiting to crew on these
:: :: :: :: boats and their weight range is wide. The current weight
:: :: :: :: limit subsequently limits and in fact, according to many
:: :: :: :: owners, blocks their access to many of their real
:: :: :: :: existing crew choices. This is a bottleneck that reduces
:: :: :: :: exposure to the fleet, participation and can interfere
:: :: :: :: in what might follow.
:: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: Not interested in six, then at least open the
:: :: :: :: bottlenecks gate to allow more people above 200 pounds
:: :: :: :: to enter. There are a lot of us.
:: :: ::
:: :: :: :: Mike
:: :: :: ::
:: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: Mike-
:: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: Maybe you should remember that this is an open forum for
:: :: :: :: :: all to read. I have no problem discussing issues that
:: :: :: :: :: you have as a class owner however, some of these rants
:: :: :: :: :: should really not be out there for the public eye. If
:: :: :: :: :: you really want to make this more fun then think about
:: :: :: :: :: perspective owners reading our forum and thinking "why
:: :: :: :: :: should I get into this class?"
:: :: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: Eric Deeds, and Paul Deeds- is there any way you might
:: :: :: :: :: be willing to set up a ‘members only’ section with
:: :: :: :: :: privileges (password protection) so that the owners of
:: :: :: :: :: the boats can have discussions like the weight issue in
:: :: :: :: :: private? Many other classes have such capability for
:: :: :: :: :: their websites for just this reason. Let me just say
:: :: :: :: :: that I am concerned about this as a couple of people
:: :: :: :: :: have mentioned the forum rants, one a possible future
:: :: :: :: :: boat owner who really doesn’t care to get into a class
:: :: :: :: :: with these kinds of issues.
:: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: Tom Jenkins
:: :: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: :: Hi Will:
:: :: :: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: :: As I recall on the windy LS of two years ago, which
:: :: :: :: :: :: Desperado won overall (we were fith overall last year)
:: :: :: :: :: :: Desperado won the North end of the line, the start, got
:: :: :: :: :: :: to the ebb elevator first as you were headed toward our
:: :: :: :: :: :: stearn from the inside. Outside the Gte we changed first
:: :: :: :: :: :: to the 4 and left you in the dust. We used an incredible
:: :: :: :: :: :: efficient Hogan main built flat and it was perfect for
:: :: :: :: :: :: this windy race.
:: :: :: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: :: I have no problem with one design racing, except would
:: :: :: :: :: :: like the weight limit reasonable for big guys like me,
:: :: :: :: :: :: for ease of finding crew, to make races easier to
:: :: :: :: :: :: administer, to avoid the juggling I'm doing now locating
:: :: :: :: :: :: five crew that fit the framework. Plus opening up the
:: :: :: :: :: :: weight limit makes the boat faster. And there's less
:: :: :: :: :: :: need for a shy kite.
:: :: :: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: :: Until the weight limit is opened to a point people can
:: :: :: :: :: :: get a consistent crew easily, the same crew pretty
:: :: :: :: :: :: muchm, you light people sailed boats will keep your
:: :: :: :: :: :: multiple advantages inluding always having morer weight
:: :: :: :: :: :: in the right places at the right times.
:: :: :: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: :: The minority is who needs to change. Not the majority.
:: :: :: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: :: This is the Fun Series. My goal is to make it more Fun.
:: :: :: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: :: Mike
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: Come on Mike. It is not about choice it is about even
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: ONE DESIGN racing. Having extra weight on the rail is a
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: tremendous advantage- I remember the last windy light
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: ship race you were over weight, started late behind
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: boats, and then sailed in a straight line through our
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: lee before the bridge. Why not loby for a motor
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: allowance? Enter your boat in a PHRF class if you must
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: sail with 6. Have your shot at the race overall trophy.
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: What does competing in a one design race and not follow
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: the rules accomplish for you? Of course it could be
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: light and you could be bobbing far behind the fleet
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: because you would be underpowered- but then everyone
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: else would be bobbing next to you because they had to
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: bring 6 in order to keep up...
:: :: :: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: If the race rules allow you to sail in a one design
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: class without following the one design rules then I
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: guess we can't do anything about that- just volunteer to
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: opt out of the season scoring.
:: :: :: :: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: Hi Will:
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: I'll look forward to reading any of your proposals.
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: My friends work schedule is such that if he's available,
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: he'd just jump on, subsequently would result in a sixth
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: . . . which I don't mind.
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: So my complaint about the fleet rules in the fun series
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: is they don't allow an essential freedom of choice.
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: Which also seem to apply to others who were limitied in
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: their choices for the real fleet series.
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: Mike
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: The friggin shy kite is legal under the class rules if
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: it is not under the minimum size. The allowable size is
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: very small- can't imagine having one smaller. This rule
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: like all the others is enforced by the honor system.
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: Take your friend sailing when it is not a class race and
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: not a rule violation. I can recall many a fun non race
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: day cruise on your boat myself...
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: Honest:
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: I'm open to anything. Even a shy kite (less than mid
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: girth max) because it can be an awesum advantage on a
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: windy reach coming back from the LightShip or Farallons.
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: A BIG ADVANTAGE known to take home many a first place
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: cups.
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: No doubt, I'd like to use my specialty ocean sails . . .
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: which do not include either a shy runner or reacher.
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: But would like to take my frend who would like to make
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: the race . . .but only has time (with a new job) to make
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: maybe one race a year? Which is his record last year for
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: this one LS race. I'dust like to place him on the boat
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: with everyone else as a sixth.
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: And yeah, we'd be overweight. But who in TFCares:-).
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: Thats why the weight limit has to be changed in the Fun
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: Series.
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: Because the round the bouy race rules ar not fun in the
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: Fun Series.
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: If the fleet allows shy kites . . . I want my sixth
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: person . . .becuase the moments on the boat with the
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: sixth and full kite are probabley about the same as five
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: and a shy kite.
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: Mike
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: Shy kites or reachers are the same thing. There is a
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: minimum size written in the class rule. A small kite
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: conforming to the class rule would be totally legal for
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: any event. I would like to see the 'outside the gate'
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: sail rules opened up as well. The class is currently
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: writing up the procedure for revising the rules and I
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: intend to introduce my proposal then.
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: The class maximum weight should still be followed. I'm
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: sure the SI's state that class rules apply to a given
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: one design class for OYRA. Certainly it would if you
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: want your score to count for the season trophy.
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: Otherwise we would all have to sail heavy, have heavy
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: designed sails, more lunches, ect...
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: Will
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: Hi Everyone:
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: Desperado is doing LightShip and doublehanded
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: Farallones.
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: I don't have any problem with anyone bringing their
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: ocean gear. Or shy kite.
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: In fact, might I add the question are boats fully
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: compliant with all the safety gear? Its a lot of extra
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: weight that can also add inequity reqardless of the
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: safety requirement.
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: I have a sixth crew that wants to go on LightShip does
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: anyone mind a little extra weight?
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: Mike
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: From my recollection at the '07 Nationals Skipper's
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: meeting, shykites would be OK for class races scheduled
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: beyond Pt. Bonita, but that specialty kites like
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: reachers would not. Few opinions were that it would lead
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: to a cost prohibitive arms race. Those people wishing to
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: use the specialty kites could still race under their
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: regular PHRF. Is my recollection correct? Help me out
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: here, guys! But yes, nothing as been added to the
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: written rules yet.
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: Joe B.
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: Last year was the first time in the 8 years I've done
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: the doublehanded Farallones race that the class
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: disallowed shykites. It had always been agreed upon that
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: outside the gate we could sail with anything allowable
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: under PHRF, i.e. shykites, reachers, etc. This
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: arrangement was supposed to have been written into the
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: rules. I plan on going this year and ,would like to race
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: with the class and bring all my ocean equipment.