Hi Bob:

In response to your post, yes I'd like to see the weight limit up'ed for several reasons.

1. It's easier to get crew all season from a cast of crew. For the 2008 Fun Series I mailed to 33 of which 1/2 are prior crew. For me, a 980# weight limit makes it easier to mix and match these people to sustain five solid crew over a season's racing.

2. In support of #1 much of that crew list is the result of an I'll sail with you if you sail with me deal. I'll sail on a number of different boats through the season and this exchange method across a cast of crew choices, offers diversity racing, works against the opportunity cost of work, family and other recreation while keeping more than my boat well enough crewed. I did, at one time, have the same crew for 5 years. And then the class intiated the weight limit of 1000#. Today even for this group, family activities would take precedence over sailing.

3. The boat sails faster with more crew weight; 1050# being ideal based on my 25 years of experience in the class, with dimishing returns downwind occuring somewhere around 1100#s+. 4. I was encouraged when I heard back from Dan on the unique number of votes per my inquiry on the unduplicated count supporting some weight limit modification. That count places those who want some form of modification within (for this last vote) 3 people of gaining a majority from that votes limited sample. So based on the last vote count, there is a catalyst out there for change that has not yet been fully realized. That change comes with time, democractic consensus and some legitimate persuasion so thank you for the dialogue.

Note my 2008 race plans are all based on sailing this years Fun season within the current weight framework; despite my 240 pounds in the back of the bus, except where there are any loop holes enabling a lighter crew weight given this area wide open for explotation as it has been exploited for some time.

Believe me around SF 'lite' is exploited by all the top boats and that extends to more than just crew; running rigging, deck, interior, designer specified crucial fastenings; if you consider 4 of 8 window bolts 'crucial'. Then how about boats who replace Lexan with sticky back for windows?

Personally, I don't care either way vis the way I have my boat rigged for the way I use my boat. Simply, there are a lot of little inequities. How about the lite motors? Specifc to scientific. This is not the first time the E27 vs M24 comparison method has come up with the 980# Express solution. And, in th M24 fleet that gets 25 boats on the line every race, anyone can tell that the varying weight of crew is very wide per boat including women, lite weights and heavy weights. The exception is a a couple of top boats that chose to sail with 5 lite weights for, in my opinion, the same advantage lite weight individuals in the E27 class sit in the back and then stack the rail with the greatest % crew advantage they can muster; for greatest % weight on the rail out of tacks for acceleratign and especially in lee bow situations.

Now, I don't mind going head to head with these boats my way which is not optimum nor is my boat optimized. Simply, that having a higher weight limit supports sustainable crew from a cast of crew. For me, the type and kind of racing I do, a 980# weight limit make the whole season much easier to administer. On your J24 example; yes it hard to compare Apples and Oranges. That is an E27 vs a deltoid pumkin seed (and I've sailed on a lot of them) that has at least as much volume and weighs more. That is 2790# (they're not all that lite by a long shot) which sail with 880 = 31% as you stated.

J24's are a great volume sailor with 5 people upwind at the top of the #1. And will better a M24 in this condition. After that, they're toast and especially compared to an E27.

Comparing the Moore to the Express is much more of an Apples to Apples comparions as both are ultralights. I think you're right that there are better boat to boat comparisons than the J24 and E27. I'm proposing that example is M24 vs E27 and subsequently my scientific attempt at making that crew weight comparison.

Please note my presing for crew weight limit gain is not to make the boat any less equal or more or less markable, although, E27s are faster with more crew weight in the general conditions around here.

My aim is simply to accomodate a wider group of crew invites for a sustainable crew all season without having to hassle the weight administration each and every race.

Cheers, Mike

:: Mike:
::
:: It's was pretty apparent you'd like the weight limit
:: raised after the discussion held here back in July,
:: August, September, and October.
::
:: I don't think the concept of 'scientific' applies to
:: your logic. After all, what makes the Moore 24 correct
:: and the Express 27 incorrect (other than the
: : calculations support your desire to raise the limit)?

::
:: One could make a counter argument that the Express limit
:: is too high using the J-24 you mention ... 400/1270=
:: 31.5% (Kgs used). Express should be 775 pounds.
::
:: I'm 200 pounds and I race at the Detroit NOODs with four
:: ... two BIG guys at 260 pounds each and one small bow
:: person at 112 pounds. Never really felt at much of a
:: disadvantage with four. In fact, one of the big guys
:: spends most of each race below!
::
:: I don't see a higher or lower weight limit as making the
:: boats more equal or more marketable. I'd vote to keep it
:: were it is.
::
:: Bob Harveynxgl
::
:: :: Hi Everyone:
:: ::
:: :: Since none of the rocket scientists took me up on
:: :: figuring out what's so different between E27 and Moore
:: :: 24 weight limits, Dan (crew from Baffet & Wylie 30
:: :: owner) and I, figured it out yestersay at SCYC.
:: ::
:: :: I raised this challenge a month or so ago, to provide a
:: :: scientific answer to the question, why are there a lot
:: :: of women, lite weights and regular American size guys
:: :: and evebn heavy weights racing in the Moore 24 fleet vs.
:: :: the Express fleet? And, why do you see this mix of
:: :: people sizes more evenly distributed on Moore 24s.
:: ::
:: :: I raised this question given a perceived myth associated
:: :: with some E27 owners in support for keeping the E27
:: :: weight limit as it; when some say it encourges woman and
:: :: lite weight crew participation under the E27 weight
:: :: rule. The E27 vs M24 calcs clearly reveal this reason as
:: :: mythical.
:: ::
:: :: I, for one, believe this E27 myth that has been
:: :: perpetuated is either 1) meant to protect light weight
:: :: skippers in the back viz their heavier (by %) crews, 2)
:: :: discriminates against some owners who weigh over 200#,
:: :: 3) is meant to detract and conceal the fact that the E27
:: :: weight limit is somehow screw up. I means its the same
:: :: as a J24; go figure.
:: ::
:: :: So, I did. Note, over 33% of the fleet feel something
:: :: has to be modified with the current #880 limit given the
:: :: recent vote. Given the number who voted, that means
:: :: three votes more gives those who want to improve the
:: :: weight limit by some modification; the constitutnet
:: :: majority for making that modification happen.
:: ::
:: :: So, lets consider the calculation. For Moore's 825/2050
:: :: = 40%. For E27 880/2450 = 36%. So, Moores 24 which do
:: :: have an even spread of women, lite weights, average &
:: :: heavy weights on every boat, allow more crew weight for
:: :: the weight of the boat.
:: ::
:: :: In fact its about a 10% difference gioven the weight
:: :: difference of the boats. Which means E27 weight to be
:: :: equivalent to M24 (so the fleet can scientifically
:: :: justify the myth of equally supporting women and light
:: :: weights) should be #980.
:: ::
:: :: I move to modify the E27 weight limit to #980.
:: ::
:: :: Mike Bruzzone